this team says they're legal but have no documents now xander can now call the police to take over his work here is done he is overwhelmingly outnumbered there are too few rangers working in the promoter ski region and the w w f says the government isn't doing enough to stop it yes you should do it because no one tries to stop them in just five years divorce will be gone what will the people who live afterwards do it's a question more and more people are aware of today climate change in the safety of our environment as a whole are being discussed around the world and perhaps it's those small steps that might be a start to people living in harmony says nature. and you can. start. to think if you want to.

follow in welcome to cross talk i'm peter all of the carnage continues in gaza and israel claims its bombardment of the gazans in self-defense at the same time denying the palestinians in the besieged strip the same right what can israel possibly achieve in this operation called pillar of cloud beyond perpetuating still another cycle of violence. and. to cross-talk the gaza crisis i'm joined by harry fear in gaza he is a documentary filmmaker and activist in amman we have money in rabbani he is coeditor of jabalia and pittsburgh we cross to greg roman he is the director of the pittsburgh jewish community relations council all right gentlemen crosstalk rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want to here a year in gaza can you give us an update what you've seen over the last twenty four

thirty six hours. last time frame that you just said we've seen the killing of two baby children one two and one four year old today we saw the killing of a fifteen year old to israel these are casual damage to us and to the gazan people these are unacceptable murders ok greg how do you assess the situation there's a lot more rumors of a ceasefire in the air how do you think this is going to play out. i believe there's a cease fire that's expected to go on the daniel susa sation of hostilities and hopefully the result of these negotiations however well you have to realize is that the reason why children are being killed is because hamas is putting their military infrastructure that's the schools that's the community centers and next to neighborhoods with residential areas if they didn't put their rocket launching pads next to killer gardens there wouldn't be so many childs who would be dying ok

marine go ahead how would you reply to that it's always the masses fault. outdated tired old propaganda you know murder and may have and it's and it's never the fault of the murderer this is this is simply outrageous and more importantly one hopes will some day have to be argued in front of the international criminal court where the judges can decide on the basis of the laws of war whether such drivel is acceptable or not you know looking also at the political dimension. the most recent reports we have is that the egyptian president mohamed morsi has indicated a ceasefire will start tonight if that is indeed accurate i think first of all we can expect a spike in violence leading up to the cease fire the reports israel has given the entire population of gaza city dropped leaflets ordering them to immediately

evacuated perhaps areas in a position to confirm that but more importantly it means that israel has failed to achieve its proclaimed objectives of deterring the palestinians and eliminating their long range rocket capabilities ok harry and this will be a huge blow to yeah i mean harry what is the morale like i mean how are people reacting to this is a seventh day as we're doing this program. well yes in the last half an hour to an hour there have been effecting. operations across the gaza strip basically five manger population centers in the north of the gaza strip have been asked to evacuate of course this is basically what david cameron calls an open air prison just very difficult to understand where the i.d.f. expect hundreds of thousands of flee. well as the other guest said this operation is never going to be successful for israel because that will always be palestinians who resist the resistance and at the moment they

say that they're capable of doing are sending these unguided missiles into israel so this is going to go on perpetually so it's very difficult to understand what israel's objective is other than just killing a load of palestinians would you like to respond to that and do what we said yeah i think that we have to be able to respond to a few accusations here which are completely with us first of all the missiles which are being fired from gaza are being fired at israeli population centers they don't discriminate they're targets which are for the main part civilians secondly israeli strikes which have been going on have been targeting only military command centers and military infrastructure what that means is that when they target certain. large head or rocket device or any kind of militant who's planning of attack on israel there's a calculus which is made between the proportionality of that attack and also if there will be civilians who will be killed now civilians are put in danger but when israel has the way it's wall obligation to protect its citizens versus that of

protecting palestinian citizens it's the onus of hamas to make sure that any rockets they do fires are the names in that area is this is really what's the range in the agreed cease fire israel broke the cease fire israel started this conflict. greg you want to to reply. yeah i don't think that they're trying to broker a cease fire because at the same time they were the ones who started the hostilities in the first place over a week ago with over four hundred rockets that were watched before israel the side to take out. so if we look out from the beginning of the year you have one thousand to two other rockets if you look over the last ten years you have twelve thousand rockets it's the onus of hamas to stop these attacks and that's the only reason why israel has responded in the way it's ok moon please jump in look i mean these israeli embassy. talking points and concocted sister sticks you know may may sound good when one preaching to the converted but one also has to occasionally take into

account the real world the fact of the matter is this latest round began when israel shelled a group of children playing soccer on a field in the gaza strip and killed a thirteen year old boy the fact of the matter is that palestinian militants responded to that attack with attacks that were solely directed at israeli military rather than civilian targets the fact of the matter is that israel though they were only drugs that is really civilian targets why did they hit a palestinian village in the west bank. go ahead excuse me i'm talking about the gaza strip and of lawsuits two hours this is as well as i can look to iris on the body i just saw you doing that here was fraudulent the lie about how this conflict or the rather this latest round of conflict began and you were simply trying to

hoodwink us and and our viewers i'm giving you facts. you know there are a matter of public record and your attempt to distort that and invent replacement facts for it is not going to get you anywhere. greg go ahead fair time everyone. ok you don't have to listen to my words you can look at the paper of the. certainly no . words. what i'm trying to say is that. you can look at any arab newspaper and find the same rocket numbers of the same casualties in the same strategies that are being used even islamic jihad spokes person called really really really civilians do you read arabic yes i do i do sir ok which newspapers are you referring to i also speak hebrew i also speak turkish and i was. referring to which which arabic news.

is your version of events. says documents. going on israeli territory but how many israelis have been killed how many israelis have been killed sitting here right now how is that he said one hundred and twenty palestinians let's have a listen lizzie been killed in the last week. ok greg go ahead because it's a weekend here on i want to be fair gemma's and doesn't want to hear it is since. ok hamas does not care about how many palestinian civilians are killed because they don't do anything in terms of building infrastructure protect they and therefore as you know you want to kill israeli as they really schoolyards. why israel cares about civilians. still i mean it certainly has been mentioned here gentlemen gentlemen nothing's been mentioned here they did the gaza strip is under siege go ahead i would still like to know which arabic newspaper reflects this

absolutely ridiculous distorted version of recent history we are now being served up. secondly. is as are the claims that greg norman is making about how mass somehow a justification for mass murder by israel in the gaza strip whether in two thousand and eight two thousand and nine or today or in the next now peter you mentioned the seeds i mean there are underlying factors here there is the occupation there is the continuously deprived right of self-determination of the palestinian people and of course in more recent years there is a siege and blockade of the gaza strip that's the context what we're seeing now is a symptom of the cause rather than the cause itself. which i do replied i greg. sure the first of all the newspaper was al-hayat the second of all accusations of mass murder. you know unnecessary to make because what's happening is israel's

defending itself now if you're asking why less israeli civilians have died then civilians in gaza it's because israel actually cares about its people and has developed active protection systems to make sure that those rockets that are being fired at israeli civilian targets israel just to. have some interest and no doubt. that the third the third point responding to your points could be one chance the third point about the siege is the following after operation cast lead in the mavi marmara incident israel changed its paradigm for humanitarian aid and allows in all humanitarian products at the request of third party n.g.o.s and the palestinian authority if anything gaza is suffering now because of the divide between fatah and hamas and the basic you know. everything that i see all the guys is provide everything socially are people go ahead everything but everything about the

occupation look peter i'd like to propose the following have a supposed back on your show and greg can produce an article from. deed that justifies his rendition according to this conflict started when hamas fired four hundred rockets at israel all eat the newspaper if you can't produce it he'll eat it all gentlemen if you want to be on thursday please do contact my producers ok ok harry if i go to you before we go to the regime and there's no well how well can the gazans protect themselves i mean the israelis protect their people are the gazans allowed to protect themselves. these writings cools that operation operation pillar of cloud the palestinians that have a name for it that shows who started it because one of them actually already had a pre-determined name ok larry i'm going to have to jump in here gentlemen we're going to have to go to was short break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on gaza and stay with us.

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which. started. welcome back across time peter lavelle to mind you were talking about the assault on gaza. which. started. ok great got to go back to you in pittsburgh let's say i mean as we're talking here are they in the negotiations for a cease fire in play what did israel accomplish this time around if anything. first of all it's white doubt most of hamas has long range rockets but more real politic sense in terms of the balance of power what we have now is israel showing that it's willing to mobilize seventy thousand troops to go on the gaza border it's also reinforce the syrian front and the show to terence to other regional bodies

like hezbollah that it's willing to take the fight to the ground of the enemy now while you also have to see is that israel is preparing for a diplomatic offensive to negate the palestinian declaration of independence which is unilateral not done through negotiations at the united nations on november twenty six so what we have here is a new middle east israel needs to adopt its reason dog draw in order to be able to adapt to the new situation that's going on in the region now you also have hamas asserting itself in a post arab spring conflict the way that gaza war two thousand and eight two thousand and nine cast lead was fought is very different from the way this war is being fought you have rocket attacks on tel of the rocket attacks on jerusalem and they've sort of upped the ante so if a ceasefire is resolved tonight as was announced by president mohamed morsi i believe that this should go into a round of peace negotiations between hamas and israel i'm not sure what abbas will

fit into this equation but if the ceasefire unravels you can guarantee that israel will do everything that is necessary in order for it to defect to centrally defend its people and also to raise the level of the terence against islamic jihad and hamas ok in a great fit this is the you know the post arab spring environment it seems like on every single front israel is losing on every front now look to anyone seriously believe that israel's inability to take out a few dozen rocket launchers in the gaza strip which has completely encircled. does anyone seriously believe that is going to anyone least of all or iran or is it going to once again show that in fact it is israel that is losing at the tactical and strategic level particularly in the context of regional.

i mean you know. obviously this is a catastrophe for the palestinians but to suggest that somehow israel is going to emerge strengthened from is absurd particularly if the key issue of arresting and reversing israel's impunity and its dealings with the palestinians is effectively dealt with. harry i mean tell me more tell us my audience more how the palestinians in gaza are reacting to all this i mean they're being terrorized of course but unfortunately they've gotten used to it over the years and the siege i mean what's the sense of solidarity on the strip. well just a very very quickly inject into the how mass and the resistance groups in gaza have been definitely absolutely strengthened by this and in terms of reconciliation between hamas and fattah yesterday they actually both hamas and fattah said that they will be unified against this assault on gaza israel seems to treat the

patterson's with so little humanity they can't even listen to it to the palestinians press releases how mass is stronger in gaza the resistance is more unified in terms of its support in gaza israel has basically shot itself in the foot the palestinian people in the last few days have the ones i've spoken to said that they feel for the first time in history they've had some sort of defense force themselves as these resistance groups have struck israel with more strength than they have previously in history including with a longer range missiles so if feels like things here in gaza are going to get worse and worse actually things there's been this leafleting of dancing. populated areas in gaza are asking hundreds and thousands of people to evacuate when they can't evacuate anyway so it looks like on the one hand and grab a ground invasion or escalation certainly is going to be forthcoming but also we're hearing these murmurings about cease fires as well which mean going on the last few days i think that the palestinians are preparing to go home and buckle up for the

next few days of violence ok greg what do you think the future is here i mean you know israel always talks about a priest peace process i have never seen it in my lifetime ok where does this go because you know there's the it's interesting when you ok gaza gets attacked the but there's a building of settlements on the west bank continuously ok i mean israel just wanted to create these political facts to capitated hamas ok and keep building ok what what does that mean for the peace process so-called. i mean it's terms of the peace process you have to understand one thing the second thousand rockets are stopped being launched from gaza the israeli military response will deescalate and they will not have any attacks going on gaza from israel the same holds true for the west bank the second the president mahmoud abbas agrees to negotiate with israel. any israeli measures in terms of unilateral action the west bank will also

cease we saw their willingness and desire to keep telling the why haven't settlement freeze hold out wait one second sir i will allow me to finish a sentence and then afterwards we'll go to you so in the west bank the second that the palestinian authority is willing to negotiate you'll see also israel stopping unilateral measures there but the only thing that unites fatah and hamas is its mutual hatred for the jewish state and you see that when they don't have a common enemy they usually just go to fisticuffs and disagree on every other issue so that was really spelling a bad bad bad future for the middle east if the only thing that they can agree on is their hatred for israel ok now we need it i mean that's a very kind gentle fair time i mean it seems to me that israel is creating its worst nightmare and that's one state ok and they're going to have to deal with it or be called an apartheid state ok their kids creating the situation themselves.

well i think you know there is a ready. in effect. a apartheid one state reality between the mediterranean and the jordan river and the challenge for the palestinians is how to effectively challenge that now i mean to suggest that somehow you know mahmoud on. the extremely compliant to put it politely. leader of the palestinian authority in the west bank is somehow driven and his policies. by hate. rid of the jews which and i presume that the systematic security cooperation between the p.a. and israel is the highest expression of that i mean this is you know this is beyond childish to make such arguments i mean really you know the issue here is israeli occupation of palestine issue here is reverse arresting and reversing israeli

impunity which allows it to continue. attacking and colonizing palestinians in the occupied territories those are the real value having to go to eighteen times and there has to be a resolution. is that a serious question. is that a serious question did an aerial. question did any. any point in those negotiations accept it withdrawal to the nine hundred sixty seven boundaries in accordance with un resolutions did israel at any point in those resolutions accept. scuse me in those negotiations except the resolution of the palestinian refugee question in accordance with the relevant un resolutions and international law did israel at any point in those negotiations accept

a whole sale dismantling of settlements in the occupied territories as called for in numerous un security council resolutions including ones that were supported even by the united states. back in the day it's very simple a state is occupying the territory of another people and it's not that simple taining and expanding that occupation is the reason that there is no peace in the middle east great. it's a colonial. resolution two forty two calls for a just resolution the borders and the refugees. and also in two thousand and seven on the over mates yasser arafat and some mahmoud abbas for ninety nine point one percent of the lead in two thousand the camp david to. the lawyer for henry and that was. pure fantasy. was the one who revealed those numbers

since two thousand interview with time magazine so while yours is out the rhetoric which you made out of your talking away it's way out just so i understand i understand i am correct atlantic that goes only understand your claim correctly mahmoud in two thousand and eight stated that who would but uk for. ninety nine point one percent of the west bank are you seriously making that claim . yes this is this sort of us very silly making label hapless negotiations that collapse because of operation was led well there's not much that there's not much i mean if you're making that claim with a straight it's not a lot to talk about what you're saying is you're repeating the same palestinian narrative for forty three years of israeli occupation yes i know that and. israel has to cease its occupation i think of palestinians are a story to have and there is absolutely no reason why that narrative should change . no this is the reason why should change because of merit if it's promoting

violence and incitement against jews rather than revolution is. using you as a party this is promoting violence it's the occupation that you are supporting there is violence. there wouldn't be occupation if there was palestinian recognition of jewish rights as well this is a two sided here where you just say that dancers are all the same i says i'm ok here in germany we're almost out of time here is going to head. this charge of anti semitism by the palestinian people is easy disproven on the historical on the serious historical record including in the last few weeks with jewish delegations coming to gaza israel is occupying somebody else's country israel is bombing somebody else's country and israel won't concede land that it's trying to colonize in somebody else's country as a condition of peace talks israel is eating up other people's run out of time thank

you very much fascinating discussion many thanks today to my guests are you guys are among and in pittsburgh and thanks to our viewers for watching a few darkie see you next time remember crosstalk feels.

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